The HR Life Podcast

All right, everybody.

Welcome to the H.R.

Life podcast, the inaugural, the very first episode of the H.R.

podcast.

I'm Tony Benjamin.

I'm one of your hosts.

And with me is Stephen Smith.

He is also one of your hosts.

You say hi, Steve.

Yeah, say hi.

All right.

There you go.

So the HR life podcast is a podcast about the work life experiences of those of us in
human resources and management.

It's a free for free flow conversation with the best HR minds in the world today.

And as I said, I'm your host, Tony Benjamin.

I've got 25 years of experience in human resources, working for some of Utah's fastest and
most well-known companies.

And I am PHR and have an MBA and a whole bunch of blah, other stuff.

And with me is Stephen Smith, famous author extraordinaire.

I am the co-host, yes.

I've been in hiring space for about 20 years now.

I am the co-founder of Applicant Pro.

I help companies build better hiring processes.

It actually attracts good people.

It's kind of my focal point.

And as Tony mentioned, I am the author of The Hiring Tree, which is laws of applicant
attraction.

I kind of break down hiring using a simple apple tree analogy.

And I am all about making hiring less complicated and way more effective.

So that's a little bit about me.

Fantastic.

Thanks, Steve.

All right.

This is going to be quite the conversation.

I'm excited about our very first episode.

This is going to be fantastic.

Joining us today on the very first episode of this, the inaugural edition is Carissa
Staley.

Welcome, Chris, to the H.R.

Life podcast.

Thanks, Tony.

I'm excited to be here.

Wait, where's the applause?

there you go.

There we go.

We got the applause going.

All right.

for it.

Well, know, was.

The crowd just can't go.

Yeah, that's right.

The crowd just can't get enough.

I was worried about the OSHA violation for the, you know, the huge noise that it could be.

So that's right.

There you go.

That's right.

That's right.

So, Chris, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and your background and what you
do?

Yeah, so I have been in HR for about 15 years.

I started as a coordinator, worked my way through a generalist in HR, business partner
into a strategic leader currently as a VP.

And I've worked kind of in a whole bunch of different industries.

That's one of the fun things about HR is you don't have to stick to one thing.

And so I've definitely jumped around and tried on a lot of fits and seen what's worked for
me.

And really you found my home in facility maintenance and manufacturing.

So those are the two I've spent the most amount of time in my career.

that's good.

You notice Steve there that she left out some of the coolest stuff that she's been doing
the last couple of years.

I did.

Facility of maintenance.

mean, cleaning is fun.

Actually, it's a lot of fun.

I won't say that too lightly.

We do a lot of cool things in the cleaning industry, but I know you're alluding to the
fact that I'm also on the board of directors for Utah Shurm.

Currently, I know, shocker.

I'm also the

chair of the Work Elevated Conference for the last two years and was the chair-elect with
the two years before that.

So this is year number four for me and it's been a ride.

I've loved it.

I'm a little, a little anxious about it ending actually, but that's the whole other
podcast for another day.

No, that's fantastic.

Thank you, you, Chrissy.

Yeah, no, she, and for those of you who don't know that the Work Elevated Conference is
Utah's annual SHRM conference.

And we're gonna get into that today.

We're gonna talk a lot about that and the background of that and then kind of the story
behind that and currently where the conference is at.

And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to have Chrissy on here was to talk about all
that.

I...

Carissa is so I also worked with the conference for a while and that's where I met Carissa
originally.

And I like Carissa because she's direct and she's honest and she knows what story I'm
going to tell next.

So this is I and I've always enjoyed working with her.

She's been fantastic.

My favorite story to tell about Chris is the first year we did the conference.

Everybody was coming to me asking for me to make decisions.

It was the day before the conference.

And, you know, the whole time we'd be with this is nine months into the planning process.

Right.

And it's the day before and everyone's setting up and everyone is running up to me and
asking me to make decisions.

And of course, my motto on that is you make the decision.

But this day, everyone just wanted my blessing on everything.

And so after a while, I was just I don't know.

I was I was just trying to direct them to do their thing.

And then Chris has said to me.

You need to go get some rest because you're kind of useless right now.

And she said, you're kind of useless.

And I was like, what do you mean?

I was so it was decision fatigue.

That's where we're going to that's where we're going to mount.

We're going to just as decision fatigue.

So.

You know, I remember that day really well and I agree with you Chris, he was kind of
useless by that

I mean, I said it lovingly, like, go get some rest.

You're clearly tired.

Like, we can help you out here.

So, I mean, it wasn't trying to be rude.

It was trying to just take care of Tony and make sure he went and got some rest.

yes, I definitely am known for my directness though.

So, I can't, I have a hard time sugar coating things.

It's not usually in my wheelhouse.

No, that's fantastic because I that's why I like Steve too is because Steve says what's on
his mind.

So.

Well, and you know, I don't know if you want me to share some of the history here.

I was the state director for Utah Shurm when I met Tony.

In fact, Tony was introduced to me by Lisa Garn.

Lisa Garn was my predecessor and she was just really good and she had so many connections.

And when I was taking over as the state director, she pointed me to Tony right away.

She said, hey, you need to talk to Tony.

He's really a

Quite frankly, he was a little frustrated about the conference in the past and he wanted
to make some changes.

he said, so Tony said, pull up your, or Elisa said, why don't you pull up your panties
there, Tony, and you'd be in charge.

And so when Elisa told me about that, I was like, I am all for it.

Let me call him right now.

And I'm sure Tony remembers our first conversation over the phone.

And I said, look, I need a director who can really manage this conference and get us going
again.

We were just coming out of COVID.

And it was just a flop the year before we had just the revenue just taint.

I mean, it was well into the five figure negative.

Yeah, there are, there are.

And we won't, we don't have time for the reasons today, but, it was just exciting to see
somebody as direct as Tony that was willing to take it on and help it flourish again.

And I'll tell you, Chris, I remember when you were on board, I remember that first year
too, because

We saw in you, Tony and I talked about you multiple times before we asked you to kind of
take it on as the director-elect, if you will.

And I don't know, we just saw this fire in you that was just exciting because it had been
missing for a while.

yeah, I mean, there's just something about that that really, really got me excited too.

it just...

put a fire under me again just to say we've got the coolest people right now that are part
of our committee here that really want to make all of this work and that was something

that I saw right away so that was so appreciated especially from my role as the state
director trying to bring everybody back together and put on something that was just paused

you know with COVID and everything so

think most volunteers are going to say the second you get involved and you really see how
much goes into planning a conference, because I will be the first to admit I had no idea.

Like you go to a conference and if it runs smooth, you don't think anything of it.

You don't realize how much effort goes into finding speakers, coordinating with speakers,
finding venues, picking food and what are the majority of people going to like to eat?

Like there's all these different

nuances that go into a conference.

But I have yet to have a volunteer come and tell me that wasn't worth it.

That wasn't fun.

I didn't enjoy even though it's hard, it's stressful, lots of decisions happen.

And so I have yet to work with a volunteer who doesn't instantly feel it and get
passionate about it themselves.

And I think that's one of the things that makes this so unique to manage the conference.

is like you said, you see other people's passion, it feeds your fire.

And I think you always have to have that no matter if you're, you know, passionate about
something or not.

If you are passionate about something and you're surrounded by people that are passionate
about something, boy, does it take off.

And that was really where we were at when we were starting to rebuild that conference.

But then we've been able to continue to build the conference completely through volunteer
efforts and not.

You're not paying an event planner and not doing all these things that would cost the
conference a lot of money to do and I think we come out with a better product because it's

a lot of passionate people that are in HR that want to further the profession and give
back to their profession and That's exciting about the conference.

Yeah, no I mean, that's a nice incentive, but

But I think a lot of people would do it even without the free admission.

There's that many passionate people about the conference and it's really, really fun to be
involved with for that very reason.

No, that's interesting you say that no one tells you they regret it.

I hadn't thought about that until you just said that, but that's exactly right.

No one's ever told me I regret having helped out or being involved.

Everyone, most of them will talk about the struggles of making decisions and last minute
things and how they pile up on you and the meetings at 930 at night because that's the

only time everybody can meet and stuff like that.

But no one's ever said they hated it.

Like no one's ever said, wow, that was a bad experience.

I won't do that again.

even with all of that, people volunteer multiple years in a row.

We've had people that have been volunteers the whole time I've been four years in, and I
have some people that have continued to serve on committees every single year.

So I think that's a testament too, to just, it's a different experience than you could
ever expect.

And it's a really fun group of people that are putting this together.

And so people keep doing it.

and keep volunteering and they don't want to walk away from it.

And that's just awesome to be a part of.

No, I agree.

agree.

conferences are a strange beast.

Like there is strange thing.

Steve, you go to more of them than any of us.

mean, how many how many conferences did you speak at last year in the last 12 months?

last year, I think 42, 43 maybe?

Year before that, another 50 or so.

Yeah, I mean, I've been to almost every state now.

So yeah, you know, there's something about the character of people as well.

when you put a volunteer in charge of something.

Because as a volunteer, oftentimes you don't have a lot of direction.

When we're in an organization, we have extreme direction.

Like here's exactly what needs to happen.

We have an outline, there's the job description, there's all the things, right?

And one of the unfortunate things with volunteerism, especially at the state level, is
that oftentimes we lose what was done before.

And so one of the things that I have absolutely loved

we got Tony on board and with Carissa, is you guys have really done a good job of putting
a playbook together so that we literally have a game plan every year.

And I think that's why it has gotten better and better and why more and more people are
getting excited about it again is because not only do we have a playbook, but we have it

in such a way that it's always going to be here, right?

the order that we have, the things that we're doing, the reason we do it, the connections
that we have, it's there to stay and I think it has just made the conference that much

better.

I You got to love HR to do that, right?

You got to love your profession.

Your profession.

So I want to swing around this Chris just a little bit.

What?

did you get into HR?

Because I know Steve, Steve just wanted to be rich and, you know, he attached himself to a
good idea and all that.

Just kidding.

But but you, how did you get into HR?

by accident and I think that's how you talk to a lot of HR professionals and that's kind
of the story they fell into it but I fell into it in college though it not not after

college I was going to school and really thought I was gonna be a dietetics major
nutrition really that just resonated with me I liked that it just felt good and then I got

to chemistry

and failed it twice and realized this was not going to be my career.

Right?

I couldn't even make it to organic chemistry.

So I was like, I failed chemistry and realized I still had like five more chemistry
classes to go and I couldn't even make it through like the first two classes.

So reevaluated life and thankfully had a really good college career counselor who talked
me through some things and gave me a semester to kind of.

regroup and she convinced me to do a lot of different classes and weirdly the class that I
just fell in love with was a business ethics class and the teacher was an HR professor and

I don't don't ask me but just the whole law aspect of HR just really fascinated me.

I loved it and so in talking to that professor a lot more about what they did

realized that this was a really unique opportunity and blend of almost like law and
psychology and strategy and all these different moving pieces that happen in HR.

And I got hooked.

And so right out of college then ended up as an HR intern into a coordinator and down that
path I went.

But yeah, really had hopes to be in a field that did not suit my needs at all.

not, I should have.

probably realized earlier in life that I'm not a scientist.

I would have had to have been the scientist.

And so again, you you have to look back and think, you know, about the path that led you
where you were.

And that counselor really has set me up to be successful.

She was smart and really guiding me into the classes that were going to help me find my
way.

Yeah.

think I think most people stumble right when they when they get into HR, they stumble into
it later.

Right.

I did.

Right.

I wanted to do operations and it's because I love the art of management and I like to
guide people through.

I didn't realize that really I was looking for human resources and I was

Mm-hmm.

but I did operations for a while and then I kind of got shoved over there a little bit and
I came out of it, shoved over there, came out of it.

And it just kept pushing me back more and more in that direction until I fell into it when
I worked at Daz 3D, but that's cool.

That's really cool.

I think one of the things that always cracks me up as I was making this change, I remember
having a really long conversation with my grandpa about going into HR.

And I remember him telling me, that's a great profession for a woman, like personnel
filing and all this stuff.

And I was like, that is not HR.

And like really had to like, be like, that's not what I'm going to do.

And, know, giving him this whole explanation of what HR is, you know, and even 15 years
ago, I think from 15 years till now.

We are strategic player and even 15 years ago, we struggled with that.

We have changed the field dynamically, especially through COVID.

But I remember having that conversation with my grandpa and he just had this idea that HR
was just these nice women that just process paperwork because that's what HR was when he

was working.

And so I think about the...

fault him for it.

Yeah, I know you can't at all, but you think about the full progression and it almost made
me even more excited to go into HR knowing even more the history of how far it had come.

And then being in it while it's changed has been a lot of fun to see us come to be invited
to the table and earn our seat at the strategic leadership level.

No, that's an interesting way to You're going to say something, Steve.

I cut you off.

Sorry about that.

Go ahead.

Oh no, I was just saying, mean, you know, it's funny you guys say accidental HR.

I was accidental too.

I, you know, I was a finance major and studied finance.

I was going to do stock trading and stuff like that.

That was kind of my passion.

And I met with the CEO of a mortgage company and he's like, hey, we need a recruiter to
help us.

Now I know recruiting is an arm of HR, right?

But back then recruiting was, you know, reported mostly the marketing team, but you were
always involved with HR because as soon as you onboarded somebody and you took them

through the onboarding and the training and all the things that are necessary for them to
stick around, you you put all this effort into it.

You don't want them just leaving the company.

And so that was the thing that always fascinated me about HR was just actually giving

the right, in fact if you've ever read the book Good to Great by Jim Collins, I was
fascinated by that book.

was, yeah, was was fairly new back then and just the concept of getting the right people
on the bus first and then sometimes moving them around into the right seats.

I just thought that that is so fascinating to me because there were times where I felt
like I know this is the right person but why are they not doing well and

when you can strategically think like an HR professional should and follow what you just
talked about, being strategic and being part of that, it's amazing how many people you can

not only retain, but put them in the right places in the right circumstances and watch
them shine.

There's just nothing more fulfilling to me than that.

So.

Yeah, I that's interesting.

I OK, I'm going to say something.

This will be shocking because I know that's never my reputation is.

So prepare yourselves.

But I'm almost getting sick of the word strategic now.

Right.

So I bet it's in the name of my company, strategic HR consulting.

Right.

But I'm almost I'm almost to the point where I'm kind of tired of it.

It it was like for 10 years it was keep us out of keep us out of court.

That's all I care about.

Keep us out of court.

I don't care what else you do.

Then it was, hey, you're a party planner, too.

You know, and all the crap that they just piled on and piled on.

And then it was the H.R.

reaction was I want to seat at the table.

well, great.

Earn your seat at the table.

know, but most H.R.

people don't read a PNL.

So they're kind of out.

Right.

But it now the big word now the strategic word is is or the big word is is strategic.

And I and I just think to myself.

OK.

It's like the Princess Bride, right?

You keep using that word, but I'm not sure you know what that word means, right?

I think that word means something else.

my background in finance was huge because I could actually speak to business.

I could actually speak that language with the CEO at the time.

And I think that's what led me into that so heavily is because I knew what a P &L was.

I knew what statements were, financial statements and all that stuff.

I had analyzed that for years and I knew Excel really well.

In fact, my first primitive ATS was an Excel spreadsheet that I added macros to so that I
could automatically send emails from Excel.

Okay, now you're just bragging, Macro's bragging.

it was fun!

ends, is macros.

I can't do macros, dang it.

I can do some killer formulas, but I can't do macros.

I don't know.

Am I right Chris?

Is it overused?

Yes and no.

think that I see absolutely where you're coming from, but I think it's still a word that's
being used a lot right now because I think HR is just we're still not used to being at the

table.

And it's a it's a change in thinking for a lot of HR professionals.

I've watched a lot of coworkers and colleagues who have had to go from managing people to
being strategic.

And that transition is hard.

It's very hard.

And

there's a lot of people unsuccessful in that transition.

And I think that we have to keep saying strategic because the next generation of HR
professionals that are coming in are going to face a very different, different environment

than we ever did.

AI is a thing now.

It didn't used to be.

How are you going to manage how through that and all of the different hurdles that come up
with, with AI and you could go on and on and on about so many different things that are

new challenges or challenges that

we haven't even seen the full impact of yet.

But that shift in thinking, there's still some people stumbling through the idea of what
does a strategic HR person look like?

And to Steve's point, he talked about being strategic because he understood a P &L and he
reported into someone that could speak the same language.

HR isn't speaking the same language yet.

And so we're still learning.

And so while I agree, it starts to get a little annoying.

strategic, strategic, and you're like, well, you don't say that with any other department,
but you do say that with HR, like be that strategic player, but we'll get rid of that by

actually being strategic and learning how to speak the business language with the other
departments.

And I think that's another reason why you see so many HR professionals working on MBAs or
getting MBAs or choosing to go back to school and understand.

the other lenses of the business because they have to be able to sit down and understand a
P and L without having a finance person explain it to them.

They have to be able to go and talk to their COO and speak a different language.

And it's interesting.

I don't think a lot of other departments are required to do that as much, but HR is.

And so it's a different level of strategy because you, really, people are everybody's
business.

No business functions without people.

You can't do it.

And so we're in charge of that area.

And if we don't understand everything that's happening in all the different areas, we
can't put the right people in the right places.

So I think eventually that strategy push goes away because we learn how to do it.

I don't know if I feel HR has enough track record being strategic that we can get rid of
it yet, but.

Obviously I think the goal is, yeah, let's get rid of it.

Like we're here, we're at the table.

We can speak the business language and be that player for your C-suite that it's really
going to be someone that they rely on.

No, everything you said, I just I agree with.

It's kind of like it's kind like when you say DEI, right?

What is DEI mean?

And then you see on LinkedIn, someone's like ramps for people.

That's not D.I.

right.

I means whatever the heck apparently you want it to mean.

So you can justify it politically, I guess.

But the but the point is, is that it's it means something a little bit different to
everybody.

Right.

They're like, you can you can make a strategic difference by doing a wellness program.

like, no, no, I've been down that road.

There is like five years where we all try to figure out how to figure out an ROI for a
wellness program and no one can do it.

yeah.

And so, yeah, it's in there.

There you go.

I use strategic because in my business name, because I want people to get out of the idea
of thinking about it.

Right.

My customers are small to medium sized businesses.

The last thing I want them to do is think of HR as the personnel role.

Right.

Which is what they all think until they get to a certain point.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Everybody thinks that it.

of small employers as well and that's exactly what they think, that they're just paper
pushers and rule followers or rule enforcers and there's so much more to it than that.

OK, prepare yourselves.

Here comes something else controversial that I'll just say.

And of course, none of the people that are listening to us fall into this category.

lots of HR people are crap.

I.

I hate to say that, but like you.

So one of my new partnerships is I'm working with this law firm, right?

So it's on the plaintiff side that I'm helping out.

And I watch some of these stuff, these companies that happens and I'm like, you know
better.

Like you knew better.

You look up the VP of HR or something like that and they got 20 years of experience.

Like you knew better than you let this happen.

Like you made that happen in ridiculous.

This, you know, and it just, makes me, I don't know.

Then you go to national sherm and let me just say, I love national sherm.

was awesome in Vegas.

Wish I could go every freaking year cause I loved it.

but there was a lot of people there that just

made me cringe, right?

Just and I'm not just talking about people that are inexperienced.

I'm talking about the ones who've got eight years in and think they know what they're
doing, but they're clueless.

That's what I'm talking about.

So it's just

I think the thing with HR is we have to remember, we have to continue to evolve, right?

I mean, you look at how much has changed in the recruiting world.

I've been in the recruiting side of things and how much more it is marketing and, you
know, understanding SEO and algorithms and all those types of things.

If you're a recruiter and you don't understand those basic concepts and principles of
marketing, then you're a very poor recruiter.

You just are.

You are not up to date on what is actually happening in the world.

And I agree with both of you.

I think that there are those out there who've been in this long enough that they just kind
of, they just, you know, follow the

flow of the stream if you will and they're not thinking strategically.

They're not thinking how do we get better and constantly evolve and become better and I
think that's critical.

You've got to continue to evolve because different things are going to come at you.

It's like Chris has said we've got AI and all these things coming at HR right now and I'll
tell you if we don't have the ability to sit down and think it through and think okay we

understand the laws, we understand all these basics, how do we bring them to

together and strategically find a way to make it work and make things function properly.

Can I can I add to that?

Like I think the right HR professional is thinking about what are the laws?

How is it going to impact us?

But not only how do we make it work, but how do we make it work for us?

Like because that changes when you go from job to job, personalize it for your company and
your vision of the company and where is your company going and what is your company

culture?

Every company culture is different and so.

you know, enforcement of some policies is very easy at some places where you and you go to
the next job and it's not.

And I think the right and true HR professional can go from place to place to place and
create something different depending on what the company goals are.

And that that takes HR to even to the next level.

Like HR shouldn't it shouldn't be the roadblock, but the guardrails.

And if you're not acting as the guardrails to let the business function at its highest
level.

then you're just in the way and you stop getting invited.

And so I think it's really critical to make sure your HR policies are not hindering the
business just because you feel like, we can't find a way to make it work.

You can always find a way to be compliant and set the business up to be successful.

And that's absolutely how you're get invited to the table.

Yep.

I love that analogy.

Be the guardrail.

Don't be the roadblock.

Yeah.

I tell all my clients, say, look, I'm not worried about compliance because that's why they
call me, right?

That's why they're calling me, Tony, we've got to be compliant.

We're big enough.

We've got to be compliant.

Compliance isn't your problem.

Your problem is culture.

Your problem is inside because if you have to, if you're worried about compliance, that
means there's a problem going on internally within the culture because if your culture is

good, your compliance just works.

First of all, happy employees don't sue you.

That's just they give you every break.

you messed up my pay for three weeks in a row or three papers.

That's no big deal.

Carissa will fix that.

It's I will get it figured out.

It's not right.

They just don't sweat it right because because and the higher the pay the easier that is.

But you know what I mean?

That's that's they don't sweat it because they trust you and they don't just trust you.

They trust the CEO to get it right and they don't they don't feel like they're out to get
hosed right.

Okay, I want to I want to switch our gears here just to get a little bit and I want to
talk about shurm.

And we talked a little bit about Utah shurm and that and being on the board and the
conference there.

And Chris, maybe you can start us out here.

So the role and value of shurm and Utah shurm, right, because it's a it's not your local
chapter.

It's not national shurm.

It's in between.

It's the meat in the sandwich, I guess.

Talk to me about what you think the value of is and in that and we just, this is a
disclaimer, we love National SHRM.

SHRM, we love you, you're awesome.

Please keep supporting us on a local level.

Wow, yeah, right?

was, it was just interesting the voice reflection there.

can't believe how...

And it wasn't even a recording.

Like it was like live right then and there.

I'm after pull that out and try it again.

So anyways.

Yeah, so for me, I have always really appreciated SHRM.

I think that they do some things really, really well, especially when you're trying to do
policy, when you're trying to just find answers.

Hey, I'm going into a new state.

They have some state-specific resources that I've always found really helpful.

Another little thing I like to say, know, HR...

We're not roadblocks, we're guardrails.

But I also like to say, in HR, you never need to be a pioneer.

You can always be a pirate.

Like somebody's already written the policy that you need.

Like, so don't reinvent the wheel.

And I think that that's what SHRM does really well for you, is allow you to get a really
good baseline.

And of course, they're going to be very generic, very straightforward.

Like, and then you take it and you just worry about the personality.

What is our company personality or culture that you're talking about?

How do we change this?

But this gives me the baseline of what I need to make sure is included in that policy and
go get it.

So especially when you're first starting out and you haven't had a whole lot of experience
creating templates or creating things, this is a great foundation.

And that's one of the things I really have always appreciated about Shurm is I can always
get the base of where I wanna start.

And I don't have to recreate something from scratch.

I can always use Shurm and always rely on that.

But aren't they just bunch of old fuddy-duddies?

You know, I used to think that I love like I love like you said, we love National Shurm.

And when I first started my career again, Shurm matched the feel of HR and we were we were
just there to dictate the rules.

We're not that company anymore.

Like the HR function has changed.

And I think Shurm has been the cutting edge leader of getting us the tools of where HR is
going.

And so I really feel, and I think that shift to me when I really felt that shift was when
Johnny C.

Taylor came on as the president.

He changed Sherm night and day and having had an opportunity to meet him at our last
conference in a 30 second conversation, he just by me telling him what industry I was in,

what states I was in, he knew just like that.

These are your challenges in HR.

And this is

This is what you're struggling with, isn't it?

He is so well versed in what HR is challenged with and he is leading the charge to say, we
got to do it different.

And I really feel like under his leadership, Shurm has changed completely.

And while they're still good, he is so in tune.

And while they're still really good at the basics that they've always been good at,
they're starting to add so many more layers of information that

as you continue to grow, feel like they've been timely in my growth through HR, getting me
tools right as I need them.

I appreciate that they're trying to get to this executive level and try to add more to the
executive level and have those conversations.

And then, you know, coming one layer deep and like you talked about, like how does Utah
Shurm different than national?

Well,

Utah as a board, we're so focused on what's happening here in our state.

We're a very different state than some of the other challenges that are happening.

And we have to understand what's going on here locally because local laws impact us more
than federal right now.

You look at states, I'm in multi-state, know, we're in California.

California has way more of an impact on federal, right?

They have way more impact on what you're doing from an employment law standpoint than

then federally, mean, everything that the federal government does, California says, that's
nice, we're going to triple it.

And we're going to do things our way.

You think minimum wage should be $7?

We think it should be 20, you know?

So it's just this whole different game.

you know, being also in Utah, like sitting here, we've got really low unemployment.

That's a different challenge than some of the other states that are happening.

We're not seeing as much impact on our economy right now.

as some of the other states are, we're just, we're in a whole different ball game.

And that's what Utah Sherham brings to the table.

And I think that my opinion having, you know, be a part of national, be a part of Utah,
being a part of a local chapter with Nura, those three resources make sure that I am so in

tune with what is going on in Utah and specifically in the areas where I am doing
business.

And so I don't know.

how I would do HR without all three.

I think you need to be involved in all three.

come, you you come to your local chapters, they're gonna really focus on what is happening
in your geographic area.

You come to Utah Sherham Conference or your state conference, they're really gonna focus
on the challenges that the state is seeing.

And then you go to national and you're really getting that cutting edge as a profession,
where is HR going?

So I have always...

I mean, even as a student, I got involved with the student chapter.

And so I've just been involved with SHRM since the very beginning of my HR career.

And it's just been incredibly helpful to have that tool.

I mean, my first job, my manager would tell me all the time when I would go and be like, I
don't know how to do this.

She'd be like, well, did you check on SHRM?

yeah.

Okay.

Let me go look.

Okay.

There it is.

Like it's a quick search and you have what you need.

means you're better at searching on that site than I am.

I don't like their searches still.

Save my life.

coming out with a lot of AI stuff on Shurm too.

I've been watching, you know, I'm huge on AI right now and I've been watching that evolve
and I feel like Shurm is trying to stay on the cutting edge of where AI is headed.

They've got new partnerships that have just gone into play with AI.

you know, John AC Taylor, recognizes that AI is the future.

It's just like when the internet came out 20 years ago.

I remember people in my office would say,

never have a website.

Companies would say, I'll never have a website.

That's dumb.

Who would do that?

Why would every company need a website?

And now here we are.

So it is definitely the future.

And there's a lot that's going to help mitigate the fact that we have less job seekers in
the market than we ever have had and will have for the next 40 to 60 years.

And so I'm excited because I think it is going to be the solution for some of the deficit
we're going

So.

No, that's that's my own take on it.

And A.I.

is just I don't think we know what it's going to be like.

I think I think you're seeing A.I.

in its infancy right now.

And most of us are using it to write policies or whatever, do a little research on what it
can find.

And then we try to find where it's wrong or, you know, those sorts of things.

I think that's where it's useful at the moment.

Unless you're paying for it.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly right.

many people treat it like a search engine and it's not.

so until, and this is where I think as HR, this is part of that strategic stuff, right?

Like in HR, we should probably be the ones that should learn this the best and understand
how it functions within our organization in a myriad of facets because if we don't

understand that, then we're gonna continue to struggle and it's gonna be really hard to.

create policy or do any of the things that we need to do from an HR perspective to make
sure that it's being handled correctly.

and also like not only handled correctly but as if we're the cutting edge and we're
learning the learning it we can put more emphasis on doing it where it's going to come out

the way we need it to like there's so many lawsuits happening right now because we don't
understand AI and we just trust that it knows what to do well AI is going to continue to

get smarter as we use it more that's the whole point of AI but if we don't know how to use
it we're certainly never going to get accurate information and so suddenly

we discredit ourselves by not understanding, like Tony also mentioned it, you gotta check.

Like there's so many times where there's just random things in there that make sure that
we, you know, like don't get what it's saying.

And so, I mean, even just, I love the, you know, lawsuit that happened where the attorneys
wrote their...

case brief through AI and there was cases in there that were legitimately fake and the
judge was the one that figured it out, not the attorneys double checking their case work.

So we can be smart and yeah, and avoid those by understanding what it is, what it's
creating, how it works and making sure that we're then using it to our better advantage.

That's awesome.

And you know, circling his background, I think that Sherma is doing a very good job of
trying to introduce that across.

I, know, so back in I remember that I went to the state conference in 2018, right.

And was the first year I'd been there in like two or three years.

And I think, Chris, I've told you this story about the 401k class, right.

But I don't know if I've told this to Steve.

So I went to I went to the conference and I thought, OK, this year I better

I better learn everything there is to learn about 401ks because they they taught me about
somebody taught me about fiduciary responsibility and suddenly suddenly I was in a panic

that I didn't know what the crap I was doing and I might get arrested or sued for for not
doing it right right so I'm all in a panic and I'm I go to I go to the state thing and I

go to a class specifically about 401ks and it's got this attorney speaking and I thought
this is awesome I'm gonna hear an attorney speak he's gonna tell me everything I ever

wanted to know about HR or about 401ks

And he stands up there and he literally says this.

says, if you came to this class expecting to find out everything there is to learn about
401Ks, then you're in the wrong place.

I was like, really?

And he goes, right.

And he says, no, this is an introduction to 401Ks.

I was like, He's like, it's too hard to know everything there is to know.

And I was like, why am I here?

What am I doing here?

we over promise and under deliver.

That's exactly what happened there.

it just just drove me nuts.

It's like, but I think I think for a long time, right, that was that was the philosophy
with especially the Utah conference.

But I'm sure other places, right, that, you know, the generalist, the entry level person
is the main person that we're here to cater to.

We're going to do classes.

And by the time you get to director level, you stop coming to things like this and you
find other unique ways to get your credits, to get your certs renewed.

But you just go away and do your thing.

If we need money, we'll call you.

Right.

And that's and I just it bugged me.

I think we did a good job of getting away from that.

You know, in the beginning, we talked to I talked to a bunch of state directors who had
gone through similar stuff that we had after 2020.

You know, covid gone.

And then in 2021, no one came.

And.

Thank you, Sherm, for having your national conference in our backyard about five hours
away.

Two weeks before our conference.

We enjoyed that.

That was awesome.

Yeah.

But we love Sherm.

That there you go.

That's that's my HR sarcasm coming out now.

But anyways, so but I started asking, right?

We called her out.

The California state director of the conference.

And we started talking to Colorado, I think.

Who's the other one?

Somebody back East.

But anyways, just start asking.

we had the whole four corners involved.

Right.

But we were we were asking like, what what did you know what worked?

And the answer was content, really good content.

And they told me California moved their their state conference to be in conjunction with
the state legislature.

And then they had all the legislators come and visit the conference while they were making
laws.

And, you know, it was was a very, very technical, highbrow thing.

And I think we've we've done a good job moving that direction.

And I think to what you were saying, Chris, that's that's part of what

Utah sure because there are no members of Utah sure and This is this is the hard part for
everybody to understand right?

So there's no members of Utah sherm and The only money we make is off that conference and
by the way We're supposed to do a lot of charitable work with that money that we get off

from them so but anyways There you go that I'm just What don't Chris?

So why don't you talk to us a little bit where the conference is going and kind of that
shift, right?

And let's maybe because, we're we're into this 45 minutes almost.

Let's kind of talk about where the conference is headed over the next couple of years and
the changes that it's going.

For example, we no longer call it weak on.

Right.

We call it the work elevated conference.

Not that that doesn't itch me every once in a still.

Well, you know, when you start promoting WeCon Utah, it just doesn't roll off the tongue
like you want it to.

Well, and you know, it's so easy.

think, you know, we all have heard the numerous stereotype jokes of HR, you know, is a
little shifty, a little shady.

And so then, you know, the HR profession gets a little prickly about, you know, embracing
some of the stereotypes and we con you is how they felt about it.

And I think that's the great thing about this conference is we do take the feedback and we
read through it and we really contemplate what...

what people want because we are trying to rebuild the conference.

And obviously the goal is for us to help you along your HR profession and career.

So I think some of the exciting things about the conference and where we're trying to take
it is definitely that we are looking at that content.

For example, the last couple years, we built out a bunch of tracks and it changed the
conference a little bit, but

the biggest thing we didn't want about work elevated is for it to feel stale.

It's gotta keep evolving, it's gotta keep changing.

And so this year we went from a benefits track to changing it to an AI tech and data
track.

That's something that's really critical to our profession.

And honestly, even at the C-suite level.

that's going to be a critical topic.

So it doesn't matter if you're just entering or you're a seasoned HR professional, you
really need to understand how to tell a story from data, especially an executive level.

Like you have to be able to take those numbers and tell, tell your other C-suite members,
what are you doing?

How are you getting results?

That's so many companies now are results driven based off of data.

HR has those tools.

They can get them.

What kind of story are you telling?

So I'm excited to add a full track of talking about AI, talking about data, talking about
HR technology.

What is that going to look like?

Because that's not just AI, but Steve's here from ApplicantPro.

ApplicantPro is an HR technology.

So what are the other things we should be thinking about and how they integrate into your
organization?

So excited to see that.

come to fruition this year and know and you know reaffirm our vision of making sure that
the conference is ever evolving with what HR is doing and making sure we stay relevant.

And so I think as we continue to grow the conference where every single year is going to
be a reevaluation of our tracks, do we do we need to change them?

Do we need to refocus?

Do we need to add add a new one?

I mean I think six might be a lot but

If we need to add a six, then we will and make sure that everybody that wants to be
involved in the conference is gonna get something out of the conference and walk away with

something new.

We're really, really focusing on depth of content, not just scratching the surface, but
giving people an opportunity to really dive deep into it and walk away with things that

they can immediately take back and implement at their...

workplace.

think that's really important.

Why go to a conference just to sit there and be bored, but like we want you engaged,
involved, excited, and can't wait to get back to the office because you have all these new

ideas to bring back to elevate yourself in your role.

One of the other things that we've really started getting going in the conference that I
think is really exciting and something that a lot of other states aren't doing is our

executive session.

So

purposely having a VIP executive session for our high level VPs and CHROs of the state and
really creating a different experience for that two hours for them that's at a level that

helps them engage more at that C-suite and how to continue, I'm sorry, to be a strategic
partner.

Sorry, Tony.

But.

with the word.

just express my opinion.

You want to keep using it.

I'm good.

It's in the name of my business.

It can't be all bad.

So just making sure that again, we're thinking through all the different tracks of HR that
you could be in.

There's so many different roles that end up being encompassed in HR.

But then so giving content to all those different disciplines, giving content for all the
different levels is really where we're trying to keep the conference going.

I'm excited to see where we can keep growing that conference.

I think one of the things that is just amazing to see is also, Steve, you're really
involved with this, but how many vendors want to show up at our conference because they

like what we're doing.

And that, think, is not only getting the attendance a testament to what we're trying to do
and rebuild, but having people that want to be involved because they're so impressed with

what we're doing and getting really, really strong.

Partners these vendors are how we're paying for really high-level keynote speakers.

I mean this year We've got some really awesome people coming I mean we have a hostage
negotiator coming like how cool is that to talk about?

and such a different take on like Defusing situations like HR is the first person that
gets called when something is going awry I mean, I worked in manufacturing.

I'm not gonna lie.

I broke up a few fist fights or two.

So

How do I deescalate that situation?

I certainly want to know how because that is some...

Right?

want to see Carissa breaking up fist fights.

I wanna see that.

I'll see what I can do.

But because it was manufacturing, I'm sure it's on a tape somewhere.

But just I mean, I'm sure not the only one that has experienced different types of things
where maybe it's not that dramatic, but there are definitely situations in today's world

where where we have to be the first to be involved.

And again, that trusted partner so that when like Tony, you mentioned earlier, when
something goes wrong, people are comfortable and

confident that you're going to solve the problem.

So they're going to come to you.

And so I think there's so many things that are happening at the conference that give you
the tools to be that trusted partner.

So when you go back to the workplace, you have more ways to be trusted, confident.

People are going to come to you and say, hey, something's wrong with my paycheck.

And it's a conversation.

It's not a fight.

Like you're taking away my money.

doing that.

It's, hey, something's wrong with my paycheck.

You probably didn't realize because you would have fixed it if you knew that.

It's a very different conversation.

And so I think, again, we're just gonna continue to grow the content, make sure that it's
always relevant and make it so that it's not just checking a box to get your credits, but

it's something that you're actually looking forward to every year.

Again, something we love to do is embrace a theme.

going all out to say, like, let's have this and be a part of the conference, sets us
apart, makes it just a little more fun.

HR were always professional, we also got to have a break.

We got to breathe.

so I also want the conference to be a chance for HR professionals to come up for air
because we don't do that.

We work hard and we burn out.

And so this is all about also a chance to come up for air and make some really good
connections and people that you can call and network with and just always have some other

resources to bounce ideas off of.

And I think we see that come out of the conference.

No, that's awesome.

You were gonna say something, Steve, go.

I just have a question because, and I'm just curious, what kind of advice would you give
an HR professional who hasn't been to the conference in a while or who has been in the

past and has been kind of complacent?

You know, traveling across the country and being at as many conferences as I have been, it
amazes me how much money a company will invest in their HR person to go to a conference.

And then that HR person just kind of squanders, doesn't go into the sessions, wanders in
the halls.

And I get it, we're in HR, we have to take care of, yeah, or they'll go out to lunch.

They're like, I don't like the food, I'm gonna just go out to lunch.

And then they end up spending four hours at the lunch and miss all of the sessions that
we're working hard to put in play for them.

So I'm just curious, what kind of advice would you give those HR professionals who are
just notorious for not showing up, not.

being fully committed or 100 % there, especially because maybe in the past they went and
they're like, yeah, this wasn't even worth my time.

And so they still think that way because you're absolutely right.

It is different now.

If you haven't been to an HR conference in Utah in the last four or five years, you are
really missing out on some of the cutting edge information that we've been having at these

conferences.

And it's time to come back, right?

Yeah, time to come back.

I think the advice I would give someone that hasn't been for a while is I have so many
people I have been able to meet that when I'm in a situation, especially when you get to a

VP or CHRO level at the top, it's lonely.

It's lonely.

And there's so many times where you don't have someone to go to and say, I need to bounce
an idea off of because you're the only one at that level.

So you can't go to a CFO and ask, what should I do?

They're going to say, well, do the most cost effective thing, save us money.

you know, you're not, you're not going to get like, no, that's just not always the right
thing for HR.

And so I would say, you know, there's so many times where I've needed to have that other
resource outside of the organization that I can trust in that understands the

confidentiality of HR and bounce ideas off of.

And there's so many times where

My current job I'm in is because I've gone to conferences and I networked I got promoted
into a VP because I was networking like I think that's a pretty good reason to go to a

conference and meet people is I you know, I've worked my way into having a network that
called me and Said hey, we have a job available for you because we want you to come on

board That's networking at its best.

Why not participate even at least just in the chance to meet people

But again, the goal of the conference is to give you tools to be successful.

And who doesn't want to be successful in their job?

No one wants to come home every day and feel like I didn't do a good job.

I didn't know what I was doing.

I don't know how to do my job.

I feel like I'm failing.

I feel like my boss is constantly on me because I'm not meeting deadlines.

Come to the conference, get those tools, learn more things, make your job easier.

and feel successful at the end of the day.

Like that's the goal is to help you do that.

So I would say between the networking, between feeling successful in your role, between
just getting a break from the day to day and doing something different, those are three

real good reasons to show up.

I might, I might add to that too.

If you're, if you're a CHRO or a VP or a senior director or something like that, and
you're like, man, these conferences don't have much for me.

Go rip shoulders with your fellow practitioners for a bit.

Go see what they're actually thinking.

Like, look, I, you know, I, I recently joked online, you know, about that people want to
go into HR because they like people and you both know my opinion of that particular thing,

right?

It doesn't last very long.

Enlighten us, Tony.

said that on LinkedIn, it's out there.

You can check out the video.

But anyways, it's after.

So you got the toned down version on LinkedIn.

anyways, it was come rub shoulders and come get to know that your fellow practitioners,
even if they're much more junior than you are, you will be surprised.

First of all, number one, imagine that the next time you have to hire a generalist or or a
manager or a business partner or whatever, that you've got five names of people you met at

that conference that you are impressed with.

That to me is worth, what's the conference you're sure, 550?

Is that what it is?

$4.99.

$499 see even better.

So it's $499 and even that's well worth your 500 bucks, right?

mean at $499 if all you do is come and you meet five people that you're impressed with or
even two that you're impressed with that you got in your back pocket and the next time you

need to hire somebody in your HR department, you've got them.

Why wouldn't you do that?

I mean you tell me Steve that's that's got to be a bargain, right?

I was gonna ask the same question.

that's what I'm trying to get at because the level that I've been at for a while now and
just talking with people, some people wonder why I even get involved or why I even

volunteer.

And I tell people, look, meeting people like Tony, like Carissa, and some of the other
professionals out there that are trying to make a difference in their own organizations,

and particularly here in the state of Utah, why would you not want to rub shoulders with
those types of people?

Why would you not want to be part of their network?

Why would you not want to be surrounded by those types of people who are going to give
advice, who are going to share stories, who are going to laugh with you, cry with you, all

those things, all these emotions that we really need.

you know, if COVID taught us anything, it taught us that we need to be around each other
again.

We actually need to be around each other.

We need to have these real conversations.

No, that's that's fantastic.

I like you get me in a room with Jared Olson and Elisa Garn or some other thought leaders
like that for 20 minutes.

Right, Carl's.

Yes.

Matter of fact, Carl's the one who first told me the word the word work life, that that
whole work life balance thing is a is a pipe dream.

And I love that.

I was like, you're right.

And I stopped using work life balance.

A matter of fact, that phrase bugs the bleep out of me now.

I'm shocked.

the show severance proves it.

Right.

So there is no such thing as work life balance.

But, you know, just you come in and like every once in a while.

And like I said, maybe it's not in the class.

Right.

Sunny Giles and her talk that she gave in 22 went over a lot of heads.

But man, that lady is brilliant.

She changed the way I interact with people when I give bad news or terminate people like
it changed how I think about it forever.

Right.

The whole fight or flight response.

You know, the Alisa's whole idea of of the traffic cop versus the mayor and the city
planner and, you know, all those sorts of things.

Those are all because I bumped into them.

I met Alisa when she was working for Prince Perlson.

I mean, that was quite a while ago.

And yeah, and it's just it's awesome.

Right.

Like I think it's those those things change your professional life.

So.

I agree.

Okay.

So, Chris, why don't you hit us up now?

The dates for the conference are.

September 22nd and 23rd, Monday and Tuesday.

And it's $4.99, yes.

and the web address is.

of course you're going to ask me that.

just changed it because of the work elevated.

But WeCon Utah still works, right?

WeconUtah.com

it's utaworkelevated.com.

Yep, utaworkelevated.com.

Yep, it does.

there.

So you got a bookmark that still works.

But Utah work elevated.com.

All right, there you go.

love that we've made this change because that was the whole purpose in the first place,
right?

Utah adopted the work elevated type idea or just being elevated just in general.

And so that's why we adopted the work elevated concept and Lisa Garn was instrumental in
those changes.

so, yeah.

her that this episode's coming out now.

feels great to bring back the work elevated whole name, especially with our Celebrate Utah
theme.

It just goes so hand in hand with what we're theming and doing for the conference this
year.

you go to the website, you can see our use of AI already on some of the graphics.

So we're trying to stay in touch, you know, with AI too.

So.

I'm having fun with Pat, by the way.

That's hilarious.

I'm enjoying that.

Yeah, it's our Pat is fantastic.

Anyways, OK, so the conference is September 22nd, 23rd.

The executive session is Tuesday morning at 9 a.m.

And there's that program is coming together and is going to be fantastic.

We'll be able to announce who the speakers are there soon.

But if you're an executive and you work in the state of Utah or your company has offices
in the state of Utah, you want to you want to give that a try.

That'll be that'll be fantastic.

Chris, anything else you'd like to tell us about the conference or anything like that in
general?

Just, this is your chance.

Plug away.

Hey, we're still looking for volunteers.

So if you want to volunteer, give us a call.

Mostly we need help during the conference.

So it's day of volunteers that we're looking for.

So if you want to check it out.

And again, I've had yet to tell a volunteer to tell me that they haven't enjoyed being a
volunteer.

So we've got spots there, but I hope people want to come.

I hope they see.

that it's just a lot of fun.

I don't know, something about being surrounded by HR people.

We always have crazy stories.

We always have the best things happen to us.

Like, it's just fun to be around a lot of HR people and really connect.

And so from that alone, it's worth it.

But the content, we're really working hard to make sure you walk away and learn something
new.

You know, just come, like I keep saying, come, get a break from work and learn something
new that excites you and get, you know, take it back to the office.

Two solid days, yeah.

love that.

It's Monday, Tuesday, so it shouldn't be too crazy.

Who doesn't want to go in the office on Monday anyway?

So, you know.

Right, right.

Hey, and if you stay late on Monday night, a bunch of us are going to get together.

I don't know the name of the restaurant yet, but we're all going to get together.

And the coolest band in the world, two weeks notice we play in.

So not that I'm biased or anything.

Anyways, but yeah.

Yeah.

Well, they tell HR jokes on stage.

Matter of fact, Chrissy, you talk about horror stories.

I tell Steve's favorite horror story as part of my stage routine.

And it's awesome.

Yeah, that's, that's awesome.

Pregnancy as a worker's comp claim.

That's awesome.

So, but you got to come to the show to hear the full pig.

That's, that's right.

That's right.

find me at the conference and ask me about it.

I'll share it with you.

I'll tell you all about it.

Steve won't corner you nor will he pitch you for 30 minutes.

He'll just tell you the story.

I'll just tell you the stories.

I'm too much of a storyteller.

Sometimes that's all I focus on.

I should probably focus on sales more, but you know, I'm a story guy, so.

There you go.

Well, anyways, Chris, thank you for being here with us.

I think this is fantastic.

You were the perfect person to get us off and running on our very first episode.

And we're grateful for you for doing this.

I wish I could say I had a door price that was going to mail you or something else.

But you just have to get my gratitude, which, by the way, I don't give out very much.

So, you know, I you know, if I speak highly of you, you know, it's a real thing because.

ha ha.

I don't, I don't.

But you're fantastic.

What you've done with the conference is wonderful.

I know that you have someone in the wings who's going to take over that and do an
incredible job.

Yeah, Joy, she's going to be awesome.

But the conference is September 22nd and 23rd, all day, both days, and stay Monday night
and enjoy a little time afterwards.

I really do think it's a good thing to go to dinner with your your fellow conference goers
that evening.

You know, here in Utah, we have this tradition, we like to go home and see our families.

I think that's awesome.

I don't want to take away from that.

The flip side is, is everybody needs though, some time to just sit back and relax and have
a good time.

You know, that first year knows that it was the second year in 23.

where we had the Mothers of Mayhem playing afterwards and all those people stayed after.

And what did they call her?

Sparkle shirt girl?

Is that they called her?

Anyways, Sparkle Top.

That's what it was.

That's what it was.

But that that whole.

there you go.

at its best.

I love her.

Anyways, that's yes.

So now if you're Sparkle top, you have something else to put on your LinkedIn profile.

So but right, right, right.

But anyways, but that that whole experience and how much fun it was and all that that went
along and those people, there weren't tons of us there that night.

We all have some experience to talk about and to share.

And it was wonderful.

It was just it was a fantastic experience.

So I'd encourage everybody to do that.

Well, thanks.

Carissa for being here and Steve, thank you again.

And you know that this podcast is going to be a weekly.

So we're recording this late in April on April 21st, and it will be a few weeks before
this one gets published.

And then we will drag behind the recording, maybe three weeks or so.

But tune in every week.

We'll the podcast will be up and running.

And Steve and I will meet some very fascinating and interesting people.

As I said, the best minds in Utah, human resources and nationally, by the way.

Johnny, if you're listening to this, Johnny C.

Taylor, you need to be on the program.

So and if Sherm wants to sponsor us, we can do that.

We won't joke about the search engine on the website very much if you sponsor.

So anyways, but there you go.

Thanks, everybody.

I appreciate it.

And I hope I hope everybody enjoys the show.

We look forward to talking to you again soon.