EP 49 - HEED This: Reading Body Language, Running Investigations, and What Counterintelligence Teaches HR with Derik Clark
Tony and Steve welcome Derik Clark — Army counterintelligence veteran, body language expert, and apparently a crowd favorite on par with Steve (high praise). Derik breaks down his HEED framework for reading nonverbal cues in HR investigations and job interviews, and why the thing you think you're seeing (lying) is almost never the thing you're actually seeing (discomfort). He also shares the true story of an Iraqi weapons smuggler who had perfect body language… until someone asked him where he was getting his money. Tony connects the dots to workplace investigations, written warnings, and why 80% of every workplace conflict story is actually the same from both sides. Steve didn't know Rocky Raccoon was a song, which tells you everything you need to know.
Learn more about Derik Clark at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derikclark/
Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven "Big Deal" Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the Books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast
Learn more about MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Learn more about Pucks for Autism at: https://www.pucksforautism.com/
Derik Clark is a veteran counterintelligence officer who served in the US Army and now works as an HR business partner and consultant. He's an expert interrogator that specializes in how to read people and the room.
Derik's HEED Framework:
Hide
Escape
Ease
Defend
(How people react when they feel uncomfortable.)
Learn more about Derik Clark at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derikclark/
Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven "Big Deal" Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the Books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast
Learn more about MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Learn more about Pucks for Autism at: https://www.pucksforautism.com/
Derik Clark is a veteran counterintelligence officer who served in the US Army and now works as an HR business partner and consultant. He's an expert interrogator that specializes in how to read people and the room.
Derik's HEED Framework:
Hide
Escape
Ease
Defend
(How people react when they feel uncomfortable.)
Creators and Guests
Host
Fantastic Tony Benjamin
I am a unique HR leader with more than 20 years’ experience working for some of Utah’s oldest, fastest growing, and most well-known companies. My experience includes Superior Drilling Products, Air Medical Resource Group, Control4, Ovivo USA and Deseret Book. I am a regionally recognized authority on building successful cultures and am an alumni speaker at DisruptHR SLC and DisruptHR St. George. I have earned an MBA from the University of Phoenix, a Bachelor’s degree from Utah State University, and am a certified Professional of Human Resources (PHR). I'm married to a woman out of my league, have three brilliant kids I doesn’t deserve and, although I travel a lot, live in Vernal, Utah.
Host
Steven "Big Deal" Smith
Steve will be the first to tell you that recruiting is marketing. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Finance at Brigham Young University and started his career in recruiting in Feb 2005. In 2008, he took a risk during a recession to help start a new company with Ryan Kohler, called ApplicantPro, a full suite HR platform for small to mid-sized businesses. In March 2025, ApplicantPro became iSolved Talent Acquisition, now serving 177,000 clients and close to 9800 employees. Before the merger, ApplicantPro made the Inc 5000 list 12 years in a row, Top Places to work in Utah 3 years in a row, and Steve was named the Small Business Utah HR Achievement Award winner in May 2024. iSolved was also named an Indeed Platinum Partner in 2023, 2024, and 2025 and is one of only ten ATS platforms in the country to obtain that designation. SHRM-CP & PHR certified, Steve currently volunteers on the Utah SHRM State Council as the immediate past State Executive Director. His book, The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction, was released in early 2023, and has helped thousands of organizations across the country rethink their approach to hiring. If you need help understanding the principles and role of SEO, marketing, and AI when it comes to attracting job seekers, Steve provides a solid framework for hiring effectively.
